why you should never ask “what if everyone did this?”
Have you ever thought when you heard an interesting idea:
“Ok sounds good but what if everyone did this? Would society / the economy / the ecosphere collapse?”
It’s an interesting question and one I’ve thought about a lot with regards to the whole FIRE thing.
First of all, we need to define “this”. There are many ways to skin the “more freedom” part of the FIRE cat:
- Gunning for full FI
- Part time work
- Contracting
- Starting your own business/side hustles
- Passive income
- Couch surfing
Even within those groupings there are many different ways to side hustle, you can combine the methods in different ways and obviously there are a myriad of products to invest in to generate passive income.
the heavyweights have spoken
It’s a question that the FIRE heavyweights have already spoken on, but ERE (x2) and MMM’s what if everyone did this question is a more specific one i.e. what if everyone became extremely frugal compared to the norms today.
This is a hypothetical question and a different one to the one I think is worth answering. Because I see most people in the FIRE community using a variety of tools to achieve their freedom and whilst some sort of frugality is surely the underpinning of all of them, let’s face it we are not all ERE or even to MMM’s standards.
So back in the real world, my answer is unfortunately a bit of a cop out:
It’s a moot point because not everyone will ever do this.
It would also appear, in my opinion, some people actually enjoy the shackles of a job or at the least find it so hard to go against the status quo they would prefer a life of servitude rather than question it. Evidence for this:
- People working far longer than they have to
- People dying soon after they retire
- People who moan about their jobs but then do sweet FA to remedy the situation
- The huge swaths of negative comments on most FI articles that hit the mainstread media
- The severe lack of entrepreneurial spirit in most people I meet
- The hugely conservative nature of most people and preference for no change (see The Status Quo bias here)
Even in the world of FIRE people can be ridiculously conservative and are saving up million(s) before even thinking about quitting a job that sounds like hell on earth (to me at least!)
Quickly going back to the entrepreneurial spirit thing, which you could view as the difference between being a producer and a consumer, consider this:
- When I post a new blog post it now gets around 1000 views in the first few days
- Out of those readers only around 20 (max) will comment
- Out of those comments around only half have started a blog (1%)
This means one of two things, either I’m writing really boring posts and people aren’t getting to the end, or there is a huge disparity in the number of people who are interested in producing and those who are interested in consuming things.
This is obviously a niche example but you see these kind of number drop offs everywhere on the web (forum members/viewers vs active posters vs moderators/forum owners) and also I believe in the real world (workers vs share holders vs actual business owners).
This also makes me think how many of the readers are actually practising to any extent what they read on here or other FIRE based blogs? I have a feeling it’s less than I would like.
Trying to patch some estimated numbers into this, I think a Pareto style principle is at work here, as ERE Jacob discussed once. In our case I reckon:
- 20% reading the blog post are actually living with some kind of FIRE values
- 4% (20% of 20%) are active and interested enough to comment on it
- ~1% (20% of 20% of 20% = 0.8%) are interested enough to start their own blog about it
I guess the overall point I’m making here is that even if there seems like there are hundreds of blogs out there wanging on about FIRE, and even the occasional story in the mainstream news about people who’ve FIRE’d early, the actual uptake on them compared to the whole population is extremely small. Let’s base it on the numbers above and run it for the whole population of the UK which google tells me is around 64 million. What if every single person in the UK heard about FIRE and read a few very persuasive articles on why it’s a great thing. Would everyone instantly drop their consumer lifestyles and become frugal monks, causing a mass economic crash due to the lower consumption? I very much doubt it…
- 64 million people hear about it, read all the articles and have a good think about it
- 12.8 million people make at least some small changes to their life style (meaning 51.2 million do absolutely jack shit about it)
- Of those, 2.56 million people actively chase FIRE by following the traditional work until you have enough route (remember most people are very conservative by nature or at least are by societies expectations)
- Of those only just over half a million will do something entrepreneurial like start their own business and find side hustles to make up their income
Do I think our economy has the capacity to absorb an additional half a million people ditching their traditional jobs and doing something different? Of course it does!!!! And this is with the whole population exposed to these ideas. The real truth is that it is still only a tiny fraction of people who even read such articles, even the ones on the mainstream media sites.
the money shot
If there is one thing I want you to takeaway from this post is this:
It may come across that everyone is out there doing their thing and you’ve missed the boat on the latest money making opportunity, side hustle or micro business idea, but the real truth is that most people think exactly like and therefore don’t bother in the first place.
Therefore there is plenty of space in the market/world for you to also do your own thing as well.
Just take blogging again as an example, the FIRE blog landscape seems very busy but there are new blogs popping up all the time with new and interesting things to say.
Another example is Huw with his Kindle publishing. There are probably millions of Kindle books out there already but there was plenty of space for him to get in there and within about a year start making a very decent living out of it, with some very hard work of course!
So don’t ever ask what if everyone did this, how many people are already doing this, and for heavens sake definitely don’t ask what is everyone else doing 🙂
I guess the real question should be:
What is holding you back?
Discussion (41) ¬
Ive toyed with starting a blog but dont think i have enough interesting things to say so will stick to commenting 😉
As you say its very different to each person but something tells me the grip of consumerism has got too many people so true FI secret is safe 🙂
London Rob
Your comments are always welcome LR so please keep on doing so 🙂
I reckon you are right on the last point as well!
The idea of a blog to me is to talk about what you’re passionate about. I would think about what people typically ask you advice about, stuff that all your friends know you are the “expert” on. That’s what I would start a blog about.
Note: If you’re a reader of TFS or other personal finance blogs you are probably the finance expert in your family. Think about all the stuff you know that they don’t! Yes, all the information about FIRE can be found on the internet, but somehow it didn’t make it to your friends. Why, and how could *your* blog change this?
Hi Stockbeard,
That’s funny as when I started this blog I didn’t really know anything about investing, and was fairly new to the whole FIRE scene. It was just something that I felt passionate about and wanted to document a journey of learning and saving and also had loads of thoughts floating around my head that I hadn’t seen covered yet and wanted to get them down. There are still tonnes in there as well just haven’t got the time to get them all out there!
I find it hard to talk to people about finances because no one knows our financial position and that I have a blog so to them if I try to give advice they probably just think I am poking my nose in. Bit of a tough one! 🙁
Hi Both,
I may well be the expert and I enjoy talking about it but not convinced I have enough to keep people interested, but who knows, maybe if I find somewhere I can do it for free I will give it a whirl (I am going for FI after all!).
I think I also buck the trend on rental properties – I simply can’t be bothered with the hassle, so I will be adding some REITS when my allocation is a little more balanced 🙂
London Rob
hi FIREstarter, agree with London Rob – a blog is a reasonably big commitment, as I know from having friends who have had one, and there are other, to me more useful things I’d rather be spending my time on. But I am heavily focused on FI. I just don’t see that a blog would really help with that.
Your point that “everyone is never going to do that so it’s a moot point” is exactly correct though. 🙂
PS have just reread my comment, am not saying blogs are not useful! Exactly the reverse. Yours and other blogs have helped immensely. But I have other “side hustles” and would rather spend more time on those.
Hi Cathy,
No worries, I knew what you meant 🙂
My point wasn’t that everyone should start a blog to help them get to FI (far from it! It’s a massive time suck and makes pretty much zero money)…
it was just an example really of how big the drop off is from people hearing of an idea, liking the idea then actually following through with it. I would imagine the same is true of the side hustles you have going as well, I bet they are good ideas but there aren’t *that* many people actually doing them (?)
Cheers!
Hi TFS,
-article read
-comment in progress (who could resist?)
-blog and podcast – less embryonic and more a twinkle in my eye
FI plans / action hit a speed bump after 2.5 yrs with baby no.1 and x1.2 income, veered off the road at baby no.2 + new house.
9 months in, i’m dusting myself off and coming up with a plan, safe in the knowledge its all going to be ok, one way or another.
Who knows if a blog will materialise. Forum posts can get longwinded enough to be blog posts sometimes and i do like reflecting on my thoughts and the sound of my own voice / look of my own words. Perhaps, I can feel something stirring in my loins….
Keep up the good work.
SG
Thanks for the comment SG, much appreciated 🙂
Liking the look of your own words definitely helps.
I don’t particularly fall into that category myself rather than have shit loads going on in my head and it’s good to get it down somewhere before it gets forgotten about. I think some of it might be actually worth reading I hope for others but if not at least I can look back on it in years to come and remember what I was thinking/feeling over time, which I think is pretty cool.
Cheers and good luck with the new plan. Everything will be OK, I am sure 🙂
Whilst I would love my friends to embrace aiming for FI a little bit (so that it’s something else we can talk about!), I’m not sure that I would want them to embrace it the way I have – they might discover my blog for starters! In any case, we still need people to be spending ridiculous amounts of money so that companies are profitable and people like us can benefit from the dividends paid!
As Cathy says, writing a blog is a real commitment so it’s not for everyone.
Yours was one of the ones that inspired me to create my own 🙂 My blog helps keep me on track and focused. That’s not to say that if I didn’t blog, I wouldn’t still have the spreadsheets that I maintain or have a plan – I just think, no, I just know that I would get a lot more distracted and whilst I’m fairly self-motivated, perhaps I would not try so hard if I didn’t have to consider what readers would think if I went on a splurge and killed my savings rate haha! The accountability is an incentive, but that’s just me, everyone is different.
“we still need people to be spending ridiculous amounts of money”
Whilst I do agree with this statement I can’t help but think the world would be an overall better place if people did not do this, or at least spent more efficiently (less waste and pollution etc…) and also if we focused more on happiness rather than consumption we could all probably get away with say a 3 day working week anyway. That would also require IMO some sort of transition away from the 1% / 99% situation we have as well and getting rid of corruption, tax havens and all the other unjust shit that entails. Which is very unlikely any time soon so let’s just play the system we have as best we can!
I’m glad you started your blog weenie, it’s been great to read your progress over the years.
I also have to admit that I don’t think I’d be doing as well without the public accountability (or that’s how it’s perceived in my head at least) of having the blog, and there are certainly some things I would not have looked into in as much detail if I didn’t decide to write a post about it. So for me it’s been a massive win on every level despite the massive commitment. It’s certainly not a side hustle or a business but a brilliant tool for personal growth and learning.
“Which is very unlikely any time soon so let’s just play the system we have as best we can”
Yep – ultimately, consuming less is the way to go but unlikely to happen in our lifetime!
“I’m glad you started your blog weenie, it’s been great to read your progress over the years.
Thanks! 🙂
I suppose thats a big question for doing anything different and leading rather than following.
Do the benefits outweigh the commitment?
If the benefits arent clear enough, its easy to talk yourself out of it because its definitely going to involve some level of extra effort.
What makes the difference to get started on these adventures? Are the benefits clearer, the commitments more acceptable, a moment of madness strikes perhaps?
Hi SG. Some more interesting questions!
I think it really depends on the “adventure” in question i.e. whether it resonates with a certain person and also then massively on what that person is like. I hesitate to say “personality type” but I guess that is the best word we have to use here?
However I think it is clear that there are some people who can project easier into the future and see the benefits of something despite them being months or years away and can therefore endure some slightly harder times beforehand to get them. On the other hand there are people who are focused on having fun right now and screwing the future “them”, I would say that myself up until my late twenties had very much this attitude, so it’s not like these mindsets are set for life and people can make massive changes and be successful with that.
Of course there are also people who are very spontaneous “moment of madness” types who like trying out new things all the time, although I doubt these sort of people have the staying power for something like FI, building a business or side hustle from the ground up, or such like anyway.
Great comment, food for thought, thanks as always!
Hi TFS
“Even in the world of FIRE people can be ridiculously conservative…” Interesting that you view my approach as that conservative. My definition of FIRE is that work is optional. To make it truly optional I need enough to never have to work again. Given I’ll likely FIRE at age 44 that could mean I need enough for 40 or more years. To keep it optional I also have to plan based on worst case sequence of returns. I also need to consider investment expenses and taxes. Put all that together and I came up with a 7 digit number for a modest lifestyle then went for it.
Would be interested in which piece of that you view as ridiculously conservative?
RIT,
Do your plans include unemployment benefit, the sale of things you no longer need, dying with a net worth of £0 and how you’ll spend nearly half your life without doing anything which someone insists on giving you some recompense for?
Using the 4% rule, if you find 20p on the floor thats worth £5 you didnt need to save for FIRE. If a £10 note happens to blow your way, thats £250 worth of earning time wasted since you are now sat on your arse doing nothing or giving all extras earnings to charities.
That starts to seems pretty conservative to me.
Hi RIT,
It’s a fair cop, you have nearly 10 years on me so maybe I will feel differently when I get to your age, but I think it is very unlikely you will never earn a penny (or cent) again in your life which is why I think you have been too conservative. On the other hand, I can totally see why you’ve done it your way, as a high earner I guess it just made sense, and of course I meant no offence with that comment. You were probably a bad example to use anyway, saving 1 million in the short time you have done is clearly not conservative by any means and is inspiration to most of the rest of us! 🙂
What I was trying to get at which hopefully was clear in parts of the rest of the post is people can be very conservative about changing parts of their lives – you clearly were not hence as I say bad example there – but many people may have a business idea (for example) and maybe won’t follow this up until they are FI (or worse, never) which I would view as being too conservative.
I personally also view saving up 1 million before quitting as far to conservative, for me in my current situation, so I guess that is why I made that comment, I was looking at it through the TFS lens. However, I think that my point of view may be more applicable to more people in this country or reading PF blogs, so I would like to encourage them to take a bit more of a risk to grab the freedom they may be craving without needing a million (or anywhere near that) in the bank.
Each to their own as they say though and no one plan is the right one for everybody.
Tell me 3 things you would change about your life Andrew?????? what would happen if you changed nothing?
nah mate you seem sorted. but ask these two questions to anyone……. and you’ll soon get the answers.
Can i just say, the best park of your blog is that you have got people to think and reply and even challenge as RIT has. very civilised!!!
Hi Dirk head 🙂
An interesting question for sure! I’m still not sure whether I should have quit my job (i.e. gunned for redundancy) or not… but apart from that no big changes (just the usual, exercise more, eat healthier, save more money etc… that most people probably always think). I’m pretty content as you seem to have noticed 🙂
Thanks!
Thanks to both your good self TFS and SG for your thoughts.
“…and of course I meant no offence with that comment.” Absolutely none taken.
“Each to their own as they say though” Agree 100%. It’s why it’s great that there are now so many UK PF bloggers out there. It was pretty lonely way back in 2007 when I started my FIRE journey. So many great ideas. Take what works for you and leave the rest as a possible idea for the future if someday it becomes appropriate.
I bet it was! 🙂
You have done the whole FIRE movement a service, and I only wish I’d come across your blog a little earlier in my life that’s for sure.
Cheers
I totally agree that there is zero chance that everyone will do this, but likewise if everyone did do this, then it would become the new normal and the world would adapt. We’re great at adaptation, particularly when it is what everyone else is doing!
I have to say that I read blogs for about 6 months, then began commenting and thinking I would like to blog for at least another 6 months before I got sick of myself and told myself to just do it. I am totally still learning, but it is a lot of fun, and means more when I can put my learning to use immediately. I’ve also just about reached that point with investing – I have read enough to get started, and continue learning from there. I wouldn’t say that I have fully embraced the FI lifestyle yet – perhaps I never will. Maybe I don’t have a big enough driver to motivate me away from the easier ‘norm’.
That is a very good point Mrs ETT. I wonder if we are just a bunch of annoying contrarians and if everyone did follow a more frugal life then we’d just start blowing cash to be different? 🙂
“I wouldn’t say that I have fully embraced the FI lifestyle yet – perhaps I never will.” – I am pretty much the same in that respect, I’m taking what I see as the best bits but still want to lead a relatively normal life so will run with the crowd when I see fit.
Cheers!
There are lots of things I like to read about and not do. I enjoy talking to historical re-enactors for 30 minutes, but I have no urge to spend my weekends being a Viking. FI and RE is all about being able to other things, not necessarily to evangelise about FI and RE. Many people living their dream may be FIRE, but only a fraction of those want to blog, and only a subset want to mention FIRE in it.
Variety is good. If we were all frugal and wrote about frugality, it would be very dull. It is hard to waste money, as it all circulates somewhere, even burning it just changes money supply, so apart from environment damaging consumption, other people shouldn’t feel the need to follow my path.
Hi John,
Very good point re: reading about many different things whilst not fully getting into them and also that not everyone needs to or should do the same thing. That’s called a dictatorship right?! 🙂
I wish I hadn’t used the example of blogging as it seems the underlying point may have been missed by a lot of people judging from the comments ( maybe they got bored and missed my summary at the bottom? 🙂 ). I just meant that whatever idea you come up with you shouldn’t be put off by how many people are/are not doing it and certainly not worry about what would happen if everyone did it because it’s almost certain that will never happen.
Spoiler alert … I visit your site quite often – to use the Blog Roll to redirect (sorry)! That doesn’t mean I don’t look through your articles. The more FIRE blogs, though, it seems to be the more selective (otherwise I’d spend the best part of the weekend reading through them all). But, that’s a decision/ choice i like having:)
Personally, a good deal of my working life is spent writing Technical Papers, so writing a blog in my own time would be too much of a busman’s (holiday) weekend – besides which, I don’t think I’d know how to write anything entertaining. Keep up the good work.
Hi Felice,
No need to apologise, if you find my blog useful in any way at all even if it was just to stare at my lovely logo design I am happy with that 🙂
See my reply above to John about the whole blogging thing. I definitely don’t want everyone to start a blog and people don’t have to justify not having one. I am sure you have your own thing(s) that you do outside of work instead don’t you?
Many thanks for the kind words and great to hear from you.
Very interesting article. Have recently quit my job with reasonable savings behind me and also finding the Liberate Life blog very useful.Have got a bit into matched betting. Using PA at the moment but would you recommend OM once I get to the reloads?
Hi Simon. Thanks! 🙂
They’re very similar but OM charge one amount and give you all the tools they develop included in the price, whereas PA seem to want to charge you extra for anything new they are bringing out, hence I prefer OM’s pricing strategy which seems to have more of a customer first approach.
They also do have a very good daily offers calendar which is great for the reloads when you get to them, plus the kicker for me is their linking direct to bets logic works much better than PA (at the last time of checking at least, haven’t been on PA for a while) which I find saves me loads of time.
If you do end up giving it a go, please consider doing so via my link here:
https://www.oddsmonkey.com/affiliates/affiliate.php?id=54746
Would be very much appreciated 🙂
Thanks for the helpful advice, TFS. I will certainly use the link if I sign up (think I will). I’m definitely more leaning to the Liberate Life idea of enjoying life more now rather than slogging for a number that I may never reach.
Hey TFS,
A thought provoking article thank you. It certainly made me stop and think because so often I put pressure on myself thinking that I’m not doing enough towards FI, or I’ve left it too late to get there, or I’ve already made certain life decisions which make it that much harder to reach FI…but actually just doing any one small thing toward it…making even 1 small change, is probably more than most of the population.
If there’s one message I hope your readers take from your article, it’s that taking action toward Financial Independence (no matter how small that action), puts you leaps and bounds ahead of the pack.
I’ll be interested to know whether this post sparked more comments than your average number of comments on your other posts (I suspect it will have done!)
Thanks for being an inspiration.
Hi OR,
Love that’s what you’ve taken away from the post. That’s positive thinking at it’s best!
Hmmm yea it could well have done actually! How ironic 🙂
Cheers and same to you.
For what it’s worth, I probably agree with most of the readers above in questioning some of what you say ref blogging, at least in the apparent implication that blogging necessarily reflects a higher level of FIRE engagement.
That said, I definitely agree with what you said at the end that there is still space for new blogs – I’ve really enjoyed liberate.life so far, and I think it was through comments on your blog that I first clicked through to that. It seems a new and logical departure from the original ERE formula to throw entrepreneurialism into the mix. ERE itself somewhat eschewed entrepreneurialism as I understand because it only works for some people whereas the basic savings rate maths is universal. The truth is though that not everyone has the self-discipline to keep high savings at low earnings levels, so the “universal accessibility” aspect has always seemed a bit overplayed to me. For that reason, I for one am glad to see the concept widening, and new role models in the blogosphere.
Back to the actual main subject of the article, though, fair point that even if everyone “did this” it would look pretty varied. It’s not a question which has ever tortured me, but I’ve never thought about it the way you’ve presented above.
AGGGHHH!!! For the 5th or 6th time that wasn’t what I was saying!!!!
Sorry for the caps but this is driving me up the wall haha. People are putting words in my mouth that I never uttered (or wrote)!
My point was simply a general one that there is clearly some sort of Pareto effect going on which culls the numbers massively from those that are initially exposed to an idea to the numbers that finally end up doing something about it. It is similar to how ERE explains a similar drop off in numbers in a completely different area of life here: http://earlyretirementextreme.com/pareto-barriers.html if that helps explain it any better (probably as he’s much better at explaining things than I am!)
The blogging was used AS AN EXAMPLE because I have hard(ish) numbers on that on page views/comments and other bloggers, yes I run a blog about FIRE but that was not relevant to this example in the slightest and I certainly didn’t say anything like you need to run a blog to be living the lifestyle. Far from it, many people I’ve met that don’t run a blog are far more FIRE and frugal than I am. I can see now my choice of words was probably unwise (“interested enough to start a blog about it” – yea, pretty dumbass move) but I would definitely stand by the fact that out of 100 people who stumble across this blog 80 of them read a few lines then bugger off or it just doesn’t resonate and they move on. Not saying there’s anything wrong with that, it’s just the numbers game of the internet (and I know this blogs bounce rate as well of course!)
Anyway, I then used my theoretical (and yes of course it is just my theory) numbers drop off to apply that to “what if” the whole of the population got exposed to a persuasive argument of the principles of FIRE and how many actually took it up (again, nothing to do with blogging)
Glad you found the rest of the post thought provoking and thanks for the additional thoughts 😉
Aha. Sorry for “triggering” you! Don’t worry; I did appreciate that “blogging>practical action” was not actually the intended message – just the part we all seem to have focussed in on in the comments! It didn’t add anything for me to run back over that ground so I retract that part of what I said.
On a separate one, FIRE meetup on the 6th sounds good if I’m invited. Would you mind sending me the details on the email attached to this comment, please?
No worries, I do see where everyone was coming from now (see comment below)
Have sent you the details and will confirm again next week when it’s finalised (away for the weekend!)
Cheers!
Hmm in all fairness I’ve just re-read it again and it does sound a bit like that’s what I’m saying. I might just delete that whole bit or re-word it as that’s not really what I mean…
Apologies!
I like your take on this question, FIREStarter. I think there’s often some value in questioning whether your actions, if universally adopted (like, driving a car 50 miles a day, or creating X pounds of trash a year) would have on the world. It’s often helpful to think about if your actions are acceptable as the “average”.
When it comes to our finances though, we can generally avoid that kind of thinking. When it comes to getting your financial house in order, so long as you’re not really hurting anyone, I don’t think it’s necessary to worry about the widespread impacts of FIRE behavior.
Hi DbF
Great point about asking that, in fact that was my idea for my next blog post (which I just posted). Honestly I didn’t nick that one off of you 😉
“I don’t think it’s necessary to worry about the widespread impacts of FIRE behavior” – Spot on as usual!