question time: if an early exit opportunity presents itself do you take it?
Apologies if this post is a bit “all about me” but’s been a rollercoaster week in the office for TFS, that’s for sure!
You may remember in my last monthly update that the question got asked about whether I’d like to come back full time?
Well it turns out that rather than a friendly question, this was an ultimatum. “The flawn ultimatum”, is perhaps what we could call it, if this small part of my life story ever made it to the big screen?
The long story short of it was, come back full time or be on your way sonny jim.
Yes, after a few meetings and some extreme version of the opposite of what I’d call straight talking that’s what I got out of them. I literally had to bring up the R word myself, they wouldn’t say it. Very weird.
Anyway so late on Tuesday I got the confirmation, I’d be on my way, and should be getting a pretty decent pay off along with it – I’ve been there about 13 years now so this seemed fair enough. There were some other questions lingering but it seemed like a pretty final decision to me.
Naturally, I went out for a few celebratory beers. I would be sad to leave but the money and a fresh start sounded pretty good to me!
I started to get used to the idea and thought of all the positives, I could:
- Mess about and decompress for a few months
- Spend even more time with Mrs and Baby T before she goes back to work next year
- Try to ramp up my matched betting activities and see how far that took me
- Focus on the blog and work my way through all the ideas and drafts I’ve got in the locker!
- Even start a new side hustle
There would be plenty of wiggle room to do all of that before money got anywhere near tight, so I have to be honest and say I was very happy overall with how things had panned out. The worst case scenario would be in 6 months time I either get bored or the side hustling doesn’t work out as well as expected, and I have to start looking for another job. It would likely have to have been a full time one, but I would look more in the local area, keep the commute down, and (finally!) get a bike. On the other hand there are more and more remote working opportunities for developers, so maybe I could just keep an eye out for a job like that.
All good in the ‘hood, right?!
not another disastrous employee corporate management movie?
It turns out I was getting waaaaay ahead of myself because less than 24 hours later, the powers that be decided that I could stay on doing my part time hours after all. My unworthy soul had been saved by the divine corporate powers that be!
What
The
Fuck
(Hang on a minute, we’ve been here before haven’t we?!)
Aside from the obvious annoyance of getting completely dicked around, like I am some sort of pawn in the managements fun little game of playing business men, there are a few other things that irked me about this whole thing.
It turns out that turning up and doing your job isn’t good enough anymore
There is a greater and greater pressure at this company to put in more hours than you actually have to or even need to. I don’t mean this has been implied but it has clearly been stated that it is expected of people, and that was part of the bone of contention about me “only” doing my part time hours, as was agreed.
As far as I’m concerned I was still doing everything that had been asked of me, none of my work has overrun the estimates I’d been given, and it’s been to a good standard. I had my yearly review just 2 months ago and my boss at the time was happy. I got given a 3 out of 5 which is the standard mark for “good” whilst not being exceptional, but I wasn’t expecting or even hoping I’d get above a 3 anyway. There was no hint in the review that anyone was unhappy with my work output.
So it seems the sticking point to me is simply that I’m not in the office enough, but I’m afraid that is what has been agreed and now they can’t take it back. The carrot of raises and promotions is not going to work with me and I’ve made it clear on many occasions now that that is the case, so the only thing left for them to make me go “the extra mile 2” now is surely…
Instilling a culture of fear
What does this look like for other employees? It doesn’t look good from my point of view. The few people that I told about were already quite hacked off about the decision to let me go anyway, and then even more annoyed about the reversal of that decision – at the sheer incompetence of the whole episode rather than the fact I’m actually staying 🙂
To put some wider context on this, there is also some other “restructuring 3” going on, so people are already edgy about that.
People are literally in fear for their jobs should they dare arrive and leave on time, with their work completed.
Luckily our meagre savings (compared to many out there in the FI world) have partially protected me from this. I have a small amount of “FU money” and I’m not afraid to deploy it. So they can’t push me around, but I do feel bad for some of the more junior staff who have to basically tow the line in this respect. Again, it’s fine if you want to climb the greasy corporate pole, if that’s your bag then have at it. But for me and many others, this is not the path we’d choose if left to our own devices.
…and after all that, it appears the exit is not completely blocked
As I was pissed off at the way it had been handled I asked for a meeting with whoever was pulling the strings on the whole decision here, and it unsurprisingly turned out to be the big boss at the company. So we had a quick chat, and he assured me that they never wanted it to go down the route it had. They just wanted “the old TFS back”. I think what that means is the guy who stays in the office till 8pm, works from home till 2am some nights. I mean, I think I made it quite clear I’m not doing that anymore – and to be honest our team is so much bigger now it is not even necessary, so it’s a moot point. I’m certainly not putting in face time in the office just to put their minds at rest that I’m “trying harder”. I will communicate this properly to them next week when we have another meeting.
But another thing he said made me believe that a Voluntary Redundancy could be on the cards if I was still not really happy being there (“If you aren’t happy here but don’t want to leave, then it’s a different conversation we should be having”). I wouldn’t say I’m not happy but on the other hand, I had got used to the idea of leaving. I definitely wouldn’t leave of my own accord without a payout because that would be a bad financial move at this stage. But with one it’s a game changer, I would feel a lot more comfortable and have a decent wedge of cash to hit the ground running with a fresh start, as described in the first section above.
The things I’m struggling with this new situation are now, if I asked again about VR:
- When it was in my mind that they wanted me out anyway, I felt validated in asking for and fighting for a good pay out. They are the bad guys and I am the poor little guy, right? Now it feels the other way round, I’m the greedy lazy employee who can’t be bothered to work anymore but am still asking for money. This feels weird and it doesn’t sit very well with me.
- It seems like the incentives aren’t aligned either. They said they definitely want me to stay, so how can I turn around and say “I’ll leave if I get a big payout”? They are incentivised to give me a bad offer so I have to stay, surely? I know there are laws and stuff on this but they have a bigger legal team than I do, unsurprisingly 🙂
- As it would now be effectively my own decision would I always be wondering “what if?“. I guess this works both ways though (If I stay, I will always be wondering What if I’d taken the VR?). I guess I’m damned if I do, damned if I don’t on this one.
As I outlined the positives of being made redundant above, it is fair to list out the positives of staying:
- Guaranteed monthly income
- I can still do matched betting on the side and boost our incomes, should boost our full FI prospects quicker than building something up from scratch (again… not sure on this one. I can’t predict the future!)
- Good social scene at work now, get on with everyone really well, a few new golf and squash players to knock about with.
- Will I get bored working from home and/or doing my own thing? Will grafting for my own paycheque prove too stressful? These are admittedly first world but very real issues it’s worth thinking about.
So should I stay or should I (attempt) to go people, what do you think? 🙂
Final note: To be honest, I’ve spoken to Mrs T and we’ve pretty much made up our minds already but I’d already written half the post so I though I may as well finish off and ask people what their thoughts were anyway. Cheers for any replies you may have as it’s always great to get other, and especially outside, perspectives, sometimes!
Notes:
- A big thank you to A&Z who bought me this mug in a second hand shop (frugal as ever) as a little present on the York FIRE escape meeting. I finally got it into a post! 🙂 – thanks again guys! ↩
- Corporate bullshit translation 1: working far longer hours than you really should ↩
- Corporate bullshit translation 2: You are being made redundant ↩
Get. Out. Now. Take the payoff and run. The whole narrative of this is going down the tubes, in support of this thesis:
People who focus on face time aren’t going anywhere. Unless you actually want to do the time, but with a nipper that doesn’t sound like it. Core time, yes, where it comes to dealing with other people, but presenteeism no. There’s something toxic in the management structure.
If there’s money in it, go now. If there isn’t, then do what you are paid for. No more – you aren’t after climbing the greasy pole. I would imagine in months/years to come they will piss you off with micromanagement and crappy performance management shite, but if there’s no payoff you get to chose the time of your exit more.
I didn’t see this sort of crap coming my way and ended up battling it in the endgame. You are in a far better position, you are more entrepreneurial, you have side options. You best option is to take a payoff, but the warning signs are there that you and the culture of this organisation are not at one. When it comes to you changing or The Man changing, it’s usually you who gets to change and suck it up. You’ve been dicked about enough – the manner of how this has been handles on their side shows the level of respect you’ll get.
I can see their side – if I ran a company I wouldn’t tolerate part timers because many of the admin overheads of an employee are fixed and it’s a curse to manage when you don’t know when people will be there etc – for p/t to work where there’s interaction it needs the whole company to work three days a week, perhaps we will see that one day.
But if the company agreed it and are trying to renegotiate it in this way it spells trouble IMO. Good luck in however it pans out for you. Sometimes it’s an ill wind and all that.
I question your summary –
> Guaranteed monthly income
Nope. There is hazard here – as described in thsi post
> Good social scene at work now, get on with everyone really well, a few new golf and squash players to knock about with.
What stops you playing squash with these guys anyway – that’s what social means. Earlier this month I got hammered with an ex-colleague, next month I will go for some beers with a couple more and some other friends. I have been out of the workplace over four years! If work is 100% of your social life you have other subtle issues which want addressing 😉
> Will I get bored working from home and/or doing my own thing? Will grafting for my own paycheque prove too stressful?
You’ve been reading SHMD too much 😉 You are the fellow who introduced me to the concept of scanners for gawd’s sake.
There’s nothing wrong in knuckling down to build the stash, but this job has pretty creaky foundations by the sound of it… Looking for alternative work might be another option well worth considering.
Hi ermine,
Thanks for the considered advice. Some really good extra thoughts to ponder here!
I’ll come clean and say my (our) decision is to stay, but wanted to hear what others thought before I said that in case anyone held back. So cheers to you and all below who’ve been very honest in their opinions and advice.
do what you are paid for. No more – you aren’t after climbing the greasy pole – This is exactly my plan if I stay. I am going to communicate this with them and if they don’t like then say well maybe it is better to go back to plan ‘R’. I’ll say I think I’m still providing value even if I ‘only’ do my allotted hours and work and if they disagree with that then that’s cool and we can part ways.
What stops you playing squash with these guys anyway – I live 1.5 hour commute away from work. There is a squash league at my local leisure center so obviously I would just sign up there anyway, and I have plenty of people I can tap up locally if I want a pint. But that’s not the point really, it was just that I happen to like 90% of the people in the office now. I’ve never worked anywhere like that (I’m including this current place over the last 13 years as well). There are a few mild twats there but I never have to deal with them. It’s a really good crowd and no matter how hard you try socializing as a working from home entrepreneur I am certain you are not going to get that kind of social interaction. I know your social scene is great after FI, but you have all the time in the world to work on that, whereas I will have to spend still some of my waking hours actually earning my crust.
I can see their side – Me too! Hence me thinking they definitely wanted shot of me! 🙂 – I get all the perks of a full time employee but do the 66% of the work, it doesn’t particularly seem that fair to me either but I’m on the good side of the deal (at the time of writing) so 1-0 to TFS on that one.
LOL at the SHMD comment 🙂 – I agree I don’t think I’d ever get bored if fully FI and left to my own devices, but if I’m forced to do something boring just to get by I might be looking back at the days in the office with rose tinted glasses (Matched betting is alright as a side hustle but I think I’d go fairly insane doing it say 4 hours a day!!!), as most of the work is pretty interesting and we do go for a lot of new tech. I know I can just learn all of that myself but I do have a lazy tendency and not sure I would bother keeping up with everything if I didn’t have to!
I guess I could just do a whole massive U Turn and set up a DIY company like MMM or something. Who knows… I guess that is what is scary, I could do anything really and what if I pick the wrong thing and hate it? I’m not properly FI (nowhere near it if we’re honest) so if I do something new and fail it will cost me. I would back myself to do well in whatever I choose but deep down you just never know, and as we know there is often luck involved in each individual success or failure story.
Thanks for the good luck wishes, maybe this isn’t the end of this small part of the story so we’ll see what happens 🙂
All the very best for it working out! The only thing I would add is keep looking after your FI plans and other opportunities, there’s probably not another 13 years to go there 😉
Hopefully it was cock-up rather than conspiracy. But best to be prepared for mind games, and that sort of thing is insidious, so best keep the parachute packed and ready for exit.
Any extra time you get there will be strengthening your position. And yeah, life’s too short for matched betting IMO, but each to their own!
Damn straight! 🙂
By keeping up with this part time work plus my side gigs we should still easily be able to save 50% of our income. Even if this only lasts (say) another 2 years this will put near enough 200K of assets which is a massive jumping off block into the world of alternative income sourcing. I just wouldn’t feel comfortable doing it right now with only around 100K the majority of which is in pensions and SIPPs and therefore untouchable anyway. I think that is the next focus for the next year or so, build up cash reserves so I actually have a decent amount of FU money to hand.
Since the cock up/conspiracy they’ve been much more amenable and we’re now negotiating and trying to come up with a new arrangement that suits both parties, just a shame that whole thing happened as above really. But at least it made good(?!) blog post material so every cloud and all that!
Hi Ermine,
apologies for the very random method of contact, I tried to find a method via your website and couldn’t….perhaps due to my terrible powers. Is there a preferred method of contact you have? As I’ve alluded to further along in the comments I’m struggling a bit with career versus what I should be doing and not uncovering useful answers. Your blog has always intrigued me and I’ll be honest in saying I often have a differing viewpoint, at least until fully reading an article of yours. I’d be interested in exploring the above with your if you wouldn’t mind? I know you’ve written several articles which touch on different portions but I’d love to pick your brains.
My email is shicky4@hotmail.com and do not worry if you aren’t interested, I’m aware you have far better things to do but if you don’t ask, you don’t get 🙂
If you can get the part time arrangement you want then I’d try it out for a bit – those kind of set ups are hard to find.
I’d only take the money and go if they offer way over the legal minimum.
Hi PC. I’m going to say to them I’ll change from 4(weeks working)/2(weeks off) to 6/2 instead and see if they go for that. It works out only as 4 weeks extra per year worked so not that big a deal for me, but I think it would make a big difference in terms of my presence in the office. We’ll see whether they go for it.
The thing with the VR is that I’d feel like a massive dick if I said yea let’s do that, then receive the offer then back out because the offer is not great. That would just cause even more bad blood between me and the management! I know that they are historically very generous but that is for people they genuinely want to get rid of, which they have repeatedly assured me that they don’t. So maybe they’ll only offer me legal minimum. They clearly aren’t going to tell me up front although I guess I could be really ballsy and ask. Not sure if I have that grade of metal stashed in my underpants though!
I take issue with Ermine’s post above. You can’t read SHMD too much. Apart from that, I’d guess a VR package would be derisory. Why would they incentivise you and other staff to go? They probably withdrew your redundancy when they realised that was daft too. You’re clearly still a valuable employee and watch out if they play hard ball. You could end up with a stuatory payment, which is legally all they are required to do. Put thoughts of the package to one side and assume you’ll get next to nothing. – does that make a difference to how you’re thinking? If not, then it’s up to you.
I agree you can’t read it enough 😉
If I had the choice of staying or leaving with a derisory VR settlement, I would definitely stay. As mentioned above I can’t see them telling me “what I could have won” before it’s too late, but I have literally no experience in these things so maybe I could get the offer and reject it and stay anyway.
I’m with the ermine as usual. Had quite a bad experience myself with an ex company 2 years ago, re micromanagement/toxic environment. Don’t expect a straight answer to anything, especially if HR get involved. Protect your mental health at all costs. Maybe get that 10 yr fix – we are 3 years into ours and have never regretted it.
Hi Simon,
We’re definitely doing the 10 year fix!
Thanks for the input, I’ll take it on board and see how things go back in the office tomorrow.
Cheers again.
Thanks for sharing TFS and I’m sorry to hear that you had to go through this corporate BS. The part time situation that you have is ideal for you and your family so I’d be tempted to stay on.
The company called your bluff and lost – it’s obvious that they can’t dispense with your services and it’s bad that they stooped to such tactics.
As Jim says though, they’re only legally required to offer statutory redundancy and your 13 years will end up not being such an attractive pot. Check it out here: https://www.gov.uk/calculate-your-redundancy-pay/y
Hope things work out for you.
Hi weenie,
Thanks for the input. Glad to hear someone actually agreeing with my decision to stay (well, if they agree to the 6/2 schedule, think they will, see my reply to PC above for clarification on that).
I know it is normally enhanced but that is for people they actually want to get rid of. I don’t know if they can get around the normal company rules and offer a rubbish amount if circumstances are different, it’s never happened as far as I’m aware since I’ve been there.
I’m glad you’ve pretty much made up your minds already. I haven’t been reading long, so I don’t know the full story, but I say that despite the sudden turnaround, there is something wrong at the core of the company, and this situation is likely to raise its head again in the future. To me, the writing is on the wall, and staying would just delay the inevitable.
However, like Jim and Weenie, I guess the payout will have an impact on the decision (and haha to Jim, Re: SHMD!)
Hi Mrs ETT,
Thanks for the input. I agree that staying might just be delaying the inevitable but I just can’t get my head around pulling the trigger on it myself. If they carry on messing me about this week with the whole PT/FT thing then I will just say let’s crack on with redundancy. I think they’ll be ok with the new PT hours I’ve suggested so hopefully I will stay and they will leave me to actually get on with my job rather than harrassing me with pointless meetings all the time 🙂
I think it would come down to what the VR package is! The way they have handled it based on above is terrible, which doesnt bode well for the future, but you at least have some good steady (if not guaranteed!) income from it if the offer on the table is poor.
It sounds like they are trying to change their approach. Based on the work that I do (and hands up I am climbing the greasy pole) – just doing my day job would net me only a meets expectations, possibly even needs improvement. I am expected to do the day job and far more, and part of the contract was opting out of the 48 hour working week, but actually I dont mind that – I will put up with it because of the package I get 🙂
Look forward to hearing what you decide!
Agree with London Rob. Depends on the VR package. If it’s good, it will give you a financial boost and you can hop into something else after a few months fully enjoying parenthood. I don’t remember if you ever said what you did more specifically than “developer”, but that sort of work sounds to me like the kind where you need to move around a bit to experience new working practices and learn from new people to hone your skills anyway…
That’s the catch 22 I think though isn’t it? They won’t tell me what that would be unless I instigate those proceedings myself, and then if I do a U turn I’ll be in a very weak position and it could end up being Full time or shit redundancy offer, which would totally suck.
Do I stick or twist…!!!???!! 🙂
I think I’m sticking. If we can come to a slightly modified PT shift pattern that suits both parties, everyone feels like they’re winning, I think this is the way to go if I can.
No issue with those climbing that pole mate, as I said in the article have at it. You can’t have everyone climbing it otherwise the management would be out of a job, which I also find very odd, why do they want everyone to be as ambitious as they are? Doesn’t really make much sense to me.
Cheers, hopefully it will be decided in a few days time and I can just update in a short paragraph in my monthly update rather than another 1500 word uber-rant!
Exactly, I would stick until they force it so you are in the strongest position! It is an odd one on why to make everyone ambitious, but you only need to look at the way some companies work (i.e. each year they sack the lowest X% of performers) – it really is a challenge. I look forward to hearing what comes out at the end of it!
Btw – a while ago you mentioned a beer in Hammersmith – still on for one?
London Rob
Hi Rob,
I really dislike dog eat dog type of ideas like sacking the lowest %age of performers automatically (although no issue with getting rid of the piss takers and real bad eggs!). I think Henry Ford had it about right, pay people a good wage and nurture your workers and they’ll pay you back and then some. Unfortunately the former attitude is by far more prevalent nowadays isn’t it?
Beers in Hammersmith sounds like a fine idea still! Ironically I’m just coming up for my two weeks off so it would have to be from around mid September now. I’ll mention it again in the next update and actually get my arse into gear and try to get a date that everyone can make!
Cheers!
Hi TFS,
It is a very cruel and harsh approach and I dont like it easy, get rid of the dead wood, or arent helping at all (now do I include you in that… 😉 Joking!). I think it does depend on the industry and business, for me I am expected to go “above and beyond” but I signed up for it for the salary 🙂
Sounds perfect for a beer – I should be around last week of September, or early October
Cheers, and enjoy the well earned break!
Haha, well I did think I was dead wood just a week ago so who really knows!? 🙂
Be interesting to meet you in person and hear more about your job/industry etc… See you (hopefully!) soon!
Im up for that – have pinged you through the contact form 🙂
I am just reading and thinking about your situation. I am in a deep debt and a divorce so I can not give any thoughts. Let us know what are you doing!
Ah, sorry to hear that. Good luck with your situation!
Hey TFS.
Sorry to hear about you getting messed around. I don’t know too much about your employer but it sounds to me like the relationship could become a bit toxic if you hang around for too long.
Here’s my 2p FWIW:
Be guided by what you want your life to look like, both now (day-to-day) and in the future (5 years, 10 years). This is all that matters. Which of the options available (i.e. stay or take the payout) will most help you shape your life the way you want it?
If you want to carry on towards FI at full-pace, perhaps putting up with the stress (and interesting performance metrics) for a few years will get you what you want. But is FI in and of itself really what you want? I used to think I wanted FI above all else too but I changed my mind.
It looks from your income/spending/net worth reports like you’re in a similar (or better) position to me. Add in a decent redundancy payout and things look even rosier. You have an in-demand skill and a good solid financial foundation. Why not just use the redundancy as a springboard to semi-retire now?
I noticed in your ‘frugally independent’ post a couple of years ago that you’d already entertained the idea of freelancing and even threw a few numbers around. This is the course that I shifted to after deciding that going all out for FI in 10 years wasn’t worth it. I’ve found that maintaining the frugal lifestyle whilst working ~40% of full-time and still maintaining a 25-30% savings rate is a far better deal than having to deal with office bullshit for 10 years.
I’m not sure what your exact skills are but, as a programmer, I’d imagine that you could be pulling in a day rate towards the top end of the scale you mentioned in that post without too much trouble (especially if you can build longstanding relationships with your clients without using agencies).
Maybe now’s a good time to reassess your goals. Are you putting up with your job unnecessarily? Remember, FI isn’t a binary thing, it’s a spectrum.
On the subject of getting bored working from home: I completely hear you on this. I actually suffer from quite bad depression if I’m holed up in a home office alone for a long period of time. It also allows me to procrastinate far too much. However, I’ve found an absolutely perfect solution to this: the coworking space. I work here.
You’re near the smoke so I’d imagine there are loads of these places near you. Working at a coworking space is brilliant. It has all of the advantages and none of the disadvantages of having a job. We socialise together, eat together etc but nobody is anybody’s boss, everyone is free to leave whenever they want.
A hidden benefit is that, most people you’re likely to find at a coworking space are likely to have a bit of an entrepreneurial inclination and so you feel a lot more motivated to do those little side projects that you’d never do working on your own at home.
I hope that helps and you manage to make a decision you’re happy with.
P.S. Sorry for the essay on coworking, I just think it’s great – I think I’ll have to do a post on it
Great comment liberate life. Thank you so much!
Why not just use the redundancy as a springboard to semi-retire now? – That was pretty much exactly the plan! Great minds think alike, I am sure 🙂
FI isn’t a binary thing, it’s a spectrum. – Again totally with you on this one. Each £1 you save buys you some freedom. I don’t really get the people who are focusing so hard on a particular number before they’ll even think of quitting their job, but I guess do whatever works for you. I think my risk tolerance is a lot higher than most peoples so maybe I should just “go for it” like yourself and recently Huw from FFBF did.
Co-working sounds very interesting, I’d never have considered that so thanks for putting it on my radar.
Your blog looks very interesting so off to read some more of what you have to say now. Thanks again for chipping in!
You’re welcome.
If you do decide to semi-retire/freelance or something similar, it would be great to hear about your progress in a future post.
Well, the lower layers seem so very far off from understanding and acting on the intent of higher layers on the matter of retaining known-good people. Such poor translation is a discouraging sign.
In this situation, I’ve stayed once and bailed once.
Unsurprisingly, bailing out was the happier choice for me.
Thanks for sharing your experiences, it means a lot to hear that from someone who’s been through both situations!
Although I ranted on it, I don’t blame the guy on the lower layer, he is a good friend actually and has just been shoved into a new position as head of our department, and then the first thing they do is get him to lead this conversation with me. Always going to be an awkward one for him.
Cheers
I think the devil is in the details.
There’s a number you’d take to walk away. That much or more, sure, you take it and start again. If not, stay put.
The hard part is figuring out your walk away number.
I’d go for 20K! That’s the easy part it’s just I’m not so comfortable asking what the payout would be. Maybe I just need to man up and ask, the worst they can say is we’re not telling you unless you definitely want to leave I suppose.
The hardest part of any negotiation is working up the courage to ask for what you want, again and again. It’s in our nature to go along and get along…but if you don’t ask, you don’t get.
Done by 40 is spot on – hold on to your minimum number and dont budge – its them who want to get you out so make them work for it. If they try any underhand tricks there are always tribunals for unfair dismissal etc. so as long as you are within the letter of your contract its on your side. Obviously its better not to get to that 🙂
It isn’t going to get any better. They’ll always only care about the bottom line, not you. So I’d say get out, leave them to their toxic mind games and enjoy the rest of your life.
Cheers for your thoughts Paul.
Ah man, if it was only so clear in my own mind as that! 🙂
To me it would all depend how far you are from ER. Sounds like the whole thing is getting pretty toxic, and staying longer could become problematic if you’re in there for more than 6 months.
Yea that’s the thing I’m a long way off ER. However I think there is more than one way to skin that particular cat, as shown by liberate_life’s comment above. That was kind of the route I was thinking of taking anyway and a nice pay out would give me the right kind of financial boost to crack on with it.
Cheers
TFS,
Nice. I think you just used your FU powers didnt you? I think celebrating is totally called for. Go with your gut. You caught a fleeting whisper of a carrot. You didnt even taste it. Dont let it play with your emotions this much. Heres how i see it went down:
Faceless HR of The Man: Whos this drone working some of the time and messing with my figures? Make him work harder or leave, he’s a pain in the ass.
The Man to “the messenger”: Go tell TFS to work harder or get out.
The embarrassed messenger for The Man: have you thought about coming back FT?
TFS: Yes. No chance. I’d say FU if offered.
[messenger rethinks strategy and does some numbers]
Messenger: Ok. Heres the deal. I’m getting stick from the man. Work FT or leave with £booty.
TFS: Ok. FU. I take the £booty.
Messenger to The Man: He says FU, he’ll take the £booty.
The Man to HR: He is not a pain in my ass and he does what we pay him for. Get over it HR.
The Man to messenger: Go and tell TFS its all been a big misunderstanding and he is a valued member in our wheel.
Epilogue:
TFS negotiates a pay rise on the back of this strong position, puts a compelling case to the messenger whilst he’s in the Mans mind? After all, if you dont ask, you dont get…. and someone, somewhere has £booty.
Haha, this made me chuckle SG, thanks for the summary 🙂
I am definitely going to mention a pay rise, not expecting them to say yes but as you say if you don’t ask…
My EEO looked sweeter on the surface but the exchange was the same. We were offered a buyout that would have been six months pay for an immediate quit. No advance notice and a very short window, so I applied straight away. Management denied my application. To help things along I informed my supervisor that I had no job offer pending, and that I would be happy to sign an agreement that I would not work on anybody’s payroll for the next five years. Still no dice.
I took the risk on the nature of their game and informed management that for me to stay on they would have to add the buyout incentive in quarterly installments to my paycheck. Otherwise I was leaving immediately– and emptyhanded. A week later they agreed to my demand, and I collected the full amount over the next year.
We are in the midst of merger reorganization so I hope to do this again in the next few months.
Wow freebird, that is some solid brass cajunas you have there!
Talk about playing them at their own game…
Nice one!
What
The
Fuck
Haha exactly mate. Bizarre. They cast their dice and then bottled it when you stood your ground.
I think it will be hard to stick it out now that they’ve shown what’s behind the mask and you were looking forward to some time off at the very least…
I’ve actually come around to the idea of staying again now, I still get far more time off than the average worker so can’t exactly complain. I know I would never be able to broker such a deal at another company so it seems silly of me to deliberately jack that in after only a year of doing it…
You can also plot your course whilst still there and working (I’ve always taken the view its easier to find something else whilst in a job) – but it depends what options you want to explore 🙂 You could look and wait for something more local to come up – another job in the corporate world and a hopefully good pay rise to kick up the ER Funds?
True. A couple more years to keep building the stash?
I do wonder how any of us would do, just jacking it in tomorrow and trying to go it alone. It would take a little while to find our feet, but I suspect we’d be fine. It’s just having the minerals – which I don’t have! 🙂
Hey Mr Z. Sorry to partially repeat my comment from over at your blog but…
Don’t have the minerals? Find them then! You would do absolutely fine. You’d make mistakes, be a newbie, feel embarrassed and then eventually feel great when you master ‘eating what you kill’.
Think about how your skint 18 year old self would have felt with a six-figure cushion behind them. Scared? I doubt it.
If I’m honest, I’m shit-scared that I’ve got it wrong sometimes but then I engage my rationality. What’s the worst that could happen? The income dries up and I have to go contracting for a while. Or, shock horror… I have to get another job! Arrghhh, nooooooo!
It would take a long time and a lot of catastrophes to not be able to feed the kids!
It’s a fallacy that you’re more secure in your job anyway, so what you’re avoiding is fear of the unknown, not actual risk.
A couple of years of freelance portfolio building will yield a client list. You would then have 5 (10?) different streams of income and a massive network. Just being in that position without knowing how to live below your means kicks the shit out of any job in a blue chip company security-wise. Add in the rather large pile of cash and the low monetary requirements and the rest of your life is your own! Now, not when you’re 40-something.
Liberate life. You certainly have me convinced. However as you say yourself you need liquidity and I don’t have that yet. I think I need a year or maybe two of doing the part time gig and the side hustles to build up my readily available cash reserves.
I’m going to put this in my latest update but as a quick note here our Net Worth of cash/investments (ex house) is 118K but only 57K is accessible in any way now (the rest is in work pensions/SIPPs). Further only 28K is in actual cash in the bank. I’m not sure what you had when you quit but I’m not comfortable with that amount, I think I would need at least 2 years worth of spending in the bank to pull the trigger which is looking to be about 72K.
Cheers again LL
No worries LL. Appreciate the comments 🙂
My current work doesn’t lend itself to freelance work, not too many people are on the look out for freelance actuaries!
There is quite a large contracting market, but employers are relatively few and so it would involve living in a few different cities. Something for the future, but not just at the moment.
“It’s a fallacy that you’re more secure in your job anyway, so what you’re avoiding is fear of the unknown, not actual risk.” – I do agree! I’ve only just recently qualified so a couple of years earning a qualified salary first.
In truth, I don’t know how long I will last in my current job. I’m not worried about leaving it or changing career again and I’m pretty sure I will. Life’s too short to do just one thing! For the moment the hours are long but the work is technical and interesting. Only time will tell how long that lasts!
Mr Z
Me neither (yet!) 🙂
Hey TFS.
Sorry – I’m not sure if it was clear, but I was responding directly to Mr Z’s comment above. I think your chosen path sounds more than sensible and would be the first to say that you need to be able to sleep at night!
Re net worth etc: much lower than yours (~£75k, don’t own a house). What we do have is lots of liquidity: 1 year’s expenses in cash and the investment portfolio is mostly outside pensions and derived from The Permanent Portfolio) so quite low volatility.
On a partially-related note, I found out that somebody I know quite well has been diagnosed with early stage prostate cancer a couple of weeks ago. He’s 48. He should be fine, but that’s only 15 years older than me and it could have been much worse.
You only get one go unfortunately, which is why I’m happy with my security:life opportunities ratio.
This post has generated some awesome discussion!
Hi LL,
Yea I knew that was a reply to Mr Z, but just thought I’d add in some extra info on why I’m not comfortable jumping into your method just yet.
Agreed the discussion has been really good. I thought people would just dismiss it as another bitch about work but glad it’s generated such good comments. Cheers to all again for chipping in!
Hi Firestarter!
Thanks for sharing. I have been reading more of these redundancy stories nowadays online and I am curious if they are usually that common or because of all the cuts in the industry.
I am still new to the FI community, so I would be tending towards staying but 13 years is a long time in the same place no? I don’t believe I can stay in one place too long, it’s different if you are settled and have family and commitments though. The easy way out would be to stay on and get that stability and push on towards FIRE.
Leaving would be a breath of fresh air, kick starting the experience of Life after FIRE.
Either way, I wish you all the best!
Hi FIREplanter,
13 years is a long time but I’ve changed jobs about 4 or 5 times in that time so it’s kept things fresh, and I’ve only been doing the part time thing a year so feel like I’m just getting going with this new routine. We also got sold/bought and moved offices 3 times as well.
I agree both options seem good to me hence going with the easy/safe path of staying (if possible!)
Cheers for your comment and well wishes and good luck with your own FI quest.
Bit of a tangent, but how do you think of work? i.e. is it just a vehicle to get you to FI and then you’ll never work again?
I’m struggling with work and ‘meaning’ right now to be honest and struggling to get it to settle, from your story above it sounds like you could be in a similar position.
Do you go above and beyond outside work to skill up at all? Personally I’m working as a software engineer in test and I’m not finding much job satisfaction. I’m good and although working in a ‘feel good’ space, I’m disconnected from direct impact, it’s hard to connect the dots so to speak. I push myself hard to improve just because I love learning and growth but I worry I’m wasting my time with this i.e. speaking engagements.
I also don’t see testing having much application once FI!
Penny for your thoughts? I imagine ermine has some interesting views on this!
Hi Nick,
I’ll be honest and say I’m not skilling up much outside of work anymore. I know it’s a constantly moving field and you need to do this but I feel like I can get by without it right now 😉
The main issue here is not motivation or interest but with my side hustling, having a kid and blogging (reading and writing) I just don’t seem to have the time to read much about software engineering any more. I did a lot of skilling up about 4-5 years ago so I’m hoping that will keep me relevant for as long as I need (if not, I can just do some more).
I do really like programming and imagine I will always dabble with it even when post FI, but there is so much other stuff to learn, see, do it will just be a small part of a (hopefully) rich and varied life. For me that is the key to meaning (along with doing something “good” for the world and people close to me) but I appreciate that not everyone will have the same definition of that. As defined by what I just said, then no my current job is not directly providing me meaning but there are aspects of it that are providing me it indirectly, the most obvious of which is they let me do this part time shift pattern (if it continues, looking like it will) which is freeing my time up to do other things.
Could you maybe ask your employer if you could do something similar?
Cheers for the comment and interesting question
Hi TFS
Given your financial circumstances (not FIRE yet!) you’re right to hang on for a VR payoff. But you can afford to save on your present earnings, so you shouldn’t be giving an inch of ground on what hours you want to work if you want to “earn” that VR payoff. As you have tiny T, if you really want to piss off your horrible employer and get paid off properly, you should ask for the parental “right to apply for flexible working”. I really regret not doing that while youngest son was under 16. Had to resign instead: bummer.
Good luck and remember: you’re more valuable to them than they are to you, because you are employable.
Hi Sally,
That is something to consider for the future (or if things turn quickly sour again) but for now we seem to have negotiated something that is amenable to both parties. I like your thinking though, the parental right to apply for flexible working is a trump card! Hah!
Cheers for the input and advice
With a young family I don’t think you have enough FU money to go. But if the arguments have damaged your relationship with your manager, plan an exit strategy, but don’t go beyond your allotted hours.